Successful Musicians Podcast – Episode #32: Insider Tips for Audio Engineering Success with IRKO

Successful Musicians Podcast Episode 32

Interviewee: IRKO

Interviewer: Jason Tonioli

Hey, this is Jason Tonioli. I’m a piano player that grew up believing it wasn’t possible to earn a living and support a family with music. I’ve proven that idea was wrong, and I’ve met hundreds of other people who have found success with their music. This podcast features stories of musicians who have found their own personal version of success and fulfillment in both music and life. This podcast is meant to inspire musicians and help them believe in their abilities and motivate them to share their talents with others. This is the Successful Musicians Podcast.

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 Jason: Welcome to the show today. Today I have Irko. He is an award-winning, multi-platinum, multi- Grammy audio engineer. He had worked on people like Kanye, Jay Z, Pit Bull, Snoop Dogg, Timbaland, and many, many more. As I was doing research and learning more about you, Irko, I thought one of the coolest things that people called you is “a producer’s best friend.”

Irko: Yeah, that’s right. Very accurate.

Jason: I think that describes what I think every audio engineer is hoping to achieve as you’re working with artists or producers – is just trying to bring the best out of them. Welcome to the podcast today.

Irko: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Jason: You’re in LA at your studio now, right?

Irko: Yeah, very rainy LA, but yes.

Jason: I think the first time I actually ran across you was when you were sharing videos of your studio build. I was in the middle of building a studio as well, and it was super helpful. I would follow it along, and I’m sure there’s been a whole lot more people that have followed along than you even realize. Let’s just rewind the clock back. I know you came from Italy and was audio and music and engineering what you thought you wanted to be when you grew up or how did you end up down this path?

Irko: Yeah, I don’t know if I knew it, but it was pretty clear that I was going to end up doing something that was at the crossroads of the nerdy-techy thing and the artistic thing. Audio engineering, even more so, mixing engineering actually is a quintessential version of that. It’s exactly what that is. It’s just as nerdy as it is creative. When I was a kid, I was definitely very attracted to anything that had an EQ, anything that had a graph on, some faders or whatever, so it was obvious. Now, I don’t remember a Tuesday afternoon that I was I’m going to want to do this when I would be growing up, but I do remember the comment of a friend of mine when I was maybe 15, 18, something like that, and his comment was, “Man, if Irko can do this with a little PC, imagine if we put him in a real studio.” I remember that line really clearly and that’s what happened.

Jason: You ended up moving over from Italy and you came to New York initially, right? What happened when you arrived? What did you start doing there?

Irko: Yeah. Basically, I was broke as a joke. I have no money because I had just finished building my second studio, right? This producer I had been working with, he was on my top MySpace friends thing on the right. He said I should come to New York and I said, “Okay”, though I’m freaking broke so it’s not that simple. Eventually I did and I made my way to New York. The goal of that first trip was just to scope around how big recording studios were managed, handled, developed or whatever, so that I could bring that know-how, that knowledge back with me in an effort to improve the way I was managing my place. Eventually the trip became like, “Okay, while you’re here, why don’t you do this session? Why don’t you do that session?” I said, “Yes, of course.” One thing led to the other and a few months after that, I got the first gold, the first platinum plaque, the first double platinum plaque. It was the welcome to America moment which I often described the way I just told you, but I want to make it very clear. It wasn’t like “Oh, yeah, you’re at the airport. You come here dude and let’s do a record with Jay Z.” It wasn’t like that, obviously. It was a buildup that started 10 or 15 years prior. It was a lot of work but eventually, things started to roll and got better and better, bigger and bigger, and here I am 20 years later, doing the same exact thing but just a lot more focused and with bigger projects that are always rolling. It’s a machine that I got going on now.

Jason: Got it. You’ve got your recording studio in LA that you’re at now, correct?

Irko: Yes. This is Studio Beats 3, the third one in a row. The first one was called Studio Beat, no number. I didn’t know it was going to be successful. The second one was obviously 2, and now this is the third one.

Jason: I’m curious, with the rooms you’ve got set up there, what did you try to build that around to be able to specialize in specifically?

Irko: Well, I only mix. So of course, the number one priority for me was the acoustic. This spot right here I’m in. I often say that I built this entire building for this chair, which is true. The whole thing evolves and builds from this spot. This space right here. That’s what happened. Now obviously, wherever you can mix, you can mix properly with proper acoustic. You can do anything else. Of course, I got the booths and the live room and another studio in the back. There are several things. Realistically, there’s nothing that cannot be done in this place. Of course, I’m known for my mixing, so that’s what I do but my chief house engineer does a lot of recording sessions for me and plenty of other things that have happened here, from writing camps to production sessions, you name it, it has happened, and it does happen all the time.

Jason: If you were in front of a group of students that’s, let’s say, aspiring audio engineers or people that think that maybe they want to do that, what advice would you give that class if you were in front of them?

Irko: Well, there’s a few that I can give, I guess, some nuggets of knowledge, but I would say the first one would be to 06:33 build the career. The urgency of building a portfolio and samples of stuff that you’ve done is a lot more important than getting the little money that you can get in the beginning. I know we’re doing it as a job, so of course, we all need to make money but the goal, especially in the beginning, should be to build the building. I don’t mean the actual building, but the career that will house everything that’s happening.

Jason: The resume, right? The groups you work with.

Irko: Yes. I would say in the beginning, people are not going to make that much money anyway so might as well just make it about a career and reinvest automatically into what you’re doing and your portfolio and what you have done, your skills and travel and stuff like that. That has turned out to be a very successful technique for me. Obviously, not everybody is me. In fact, nobody’s me. You have to play by your own rules and see whatever fits you, but I would suggest that it’s very important to invest in yourself. Like when I was going to New York. Technically, I was paying to work. I wasn’t even getting paid to work or not even for free. No, I had to pay to get there first. If you can see how absurd that statement is, imagine what would have happened if I didn’t do that. It’s a full investment in the vision of my future as a business owner, as an engineer, as a personality and audio engineering. I would say that invest completely in yourself and make sure that you do so at length because it’ll come back eventually. So that will be one thing. 

Another thing will be to just 08:14 be patient because these things take years and years and sometimes it’s not a couple, it’s a decade. You have to put it into your craft, career and everything in order to get to the point where you can be a very successful entity in the music industry. It takes a lot. Just love it and you have to make sure that you’re absolutely loving what you’re doing to the point that you would be okay to do it for free for many, many years.

Jason: Yeah. As you look back on the many years now that you’ve got into this world, are there mistakes that you’ve seen made along the way that some people have made, or are there personality traits that they need to be aware of to try and have or not have? I mean, what mistakes, would you say, are fairly common when somebody’s newer in the industry?

Irko: 09:07 The biggest mistake, I would say, and this goes for any business, really, is to have it be the mistake and not instead a lesson. If it happens with one client that this hiccup or this whoopsie happened, well, let’s not have that be a mistake. Let’s have that be a lesson so that the whoopsie will never happen again. This has happened to me over two, almost three decades now and pretty much at this point, I’ve seen everything. I’ve seen all the issues, all the moments in which the transaction, the communication, the engineering, whatever goes into whatever I do could have been improved or just reassured that the communication stresses what needs to be understood by the client. Clients don’t mix records, I do, so I need to make sure that even if they’ve never done it, they don’t even really understand what it is, that I make it understood so they understand what we’re doing here. Communication is huge. I would say if we just qualified and we live it as a mistake, then it’s like, “Okay, well, we haven’t learned anything.” I would say if this happened and this situation turned out to be bad news for anyone involved, including the business owner, that should be addressed and revisited and changed so the next that doesn’t happen and that could be anything from money handling, booking, file management, you name it. There are so many things.

Jason: Right. That’s great advice. One other thing is, I’m an artist but I’ve also tried to learn the technology side and be able to muddle through recordings still and doing some of the audio engineering. What advice would you have for that newer person coming in? I mean, 20 years ago, there weren’t a lot of options. It seems like today there’s 100 different options of which sound software you’re going to use. What equipment you’re going to use, what microphones? What advice would you have for that newer person trying to get into the music business or get into audio engineering?

Irko: 11:31 Consistency usually turns out to be the best way to go about doing things. Whatever choice of your DAW will be at the moment, if you’re more of a producer, most likely you will gravitate around Logic, for example. If you’re more of a recording guy, you might be looking into Pro tools. It doesn’t really matter. I’m a Pro tools guy, and that’s what’s been in front of me right now and it has been for 25 years. To me, that has been my choice way back then and I just stuck with it and kept with it. I know that’s my tool and I know it in and out. There’s no secrets for me with this platform. It doesn’t have to be my platform. Whatever platform you do choose and decide to use, just stick with it, know it in and out. I’ve seen so many producers and artists and engineers, “I’m on this DAW” and then a year later, “Oh, now I’m on a different one.” A year later now, “I’m on a different one.” Your knowledge of these surfaces become very fractured, and you don’t really get that deep into any of these, so you just know a little bit of all of them, but you got to become a sensei at one and just keep with it. I would say it’s the same thing with a lot of other gear. Although the gear is always secondary to the ear, according to me, still, you do need the tools. The tools are very important.

Jason: Great advice. I’ve seen that happen with a lot of people I’ve been around who have gotten really good at their trade or their tool, and man, it’s amazing what they can do once they know how to work it. Curious, you’ve observed a lot of different recording sessions and probably a fly on the wall for some of them. Been right there in the middle of it for a lot. As you think back on some of these fun stories that maybe have happened in the studio, is there any that come to mind, behind the scenes things that you learned from that might be helpful for somebody to learn from what you observed?

Irko: Yeah, I would say being a fan of the talent that you’re working with is good to a degree, but when you’re in the studio with the talent or the celebrity, you cannot be a fan in that seat. You need to be an accessory of what the train of thought or the task at hand is. You can’t be caught doing a little selfie with a celebrity next to you just because you like them. You can’t be a fanboy. You can’t fan out like that. So that’s an example. I’ve seen people getting fired because of those things. Rightfully, I think It shouldn’t be that way. That’s a piece of advice. Also, I would say, again, this changes from person to person, but I keep my personal life very separate from my business life. What I do for a living is what I do for a living, and what I do at home is what I do at home. I try to keep it a little bit separate in that sense because it’s two different parts of the brain that occupy the same real estate, but they are two different things. That’s another piece of advice that I would give that has worked for me. That’s just my two cents. 

Jason: Awesome. One of the things is I’ve been around sessions. I’ve watched different audio engineers or different producers in situations where they’re trying to get the best out of the artist. I’m curious if you have any situation that comes to mind where you’ve watched… Maybe it’s you that’s been able to do that, or maybe there’s been other people you’ve observed that just have a knack for bringing the best out of the talent and help them take them to another notch. Any thoughts you have on somebody who’s a musician should know to help make that happen?

Irko: Yeah. That’s also a very delicate line that a professional, studio professional, needs to be able to walk because it’s a thin line because one inch to the left, you’re getting fired because the artist gets offended. One inch to the right, you’re playing too safe. You’re redoing the same song that was recorded last year. The communication aspect of these things is very, very important, so crucial. So yeah, I guess that’s why you have so few very established vocal producers for example, especially working with celebrities and things. It’s difficult, it’s very difficult. But once you learn who is in front of you and if you practice, you get up to a place where it’s easy for you to assess the situation. How much this talent is allowing you to steer the ship, and how much is not. By the way, the same goes with mixing. It’s the same thing. Some producers want me to do all kinds of backflips. Some producers are like, “No, I just want a little trim, a tiny little trim.” You gotta walk it and understand which one is in front of you. 

Jason: Got it. As an engineer, when you’re pushing that envelope, is there any specific story in general that comes to mind where you didn’t push hard enough, or you push too far that you can share?

Irko: Yeah, I’ve been in situations. Talking about mixing, it’s a lot more delicate of a situation where you are in front of somebody recording, especially a celebrity. But like mixing a record, and it’s clear as day to me that the bass is not in the same key of the rest of the music, that’s when the phone call starts. Now, what’s the reaction after that phone call? That could be interpreted in different ways. All the way down to maybe that the note is not wrong, but it’s like at 15 Hertz. It’s like nobody will ever hear that, so breaking down and explaining to the producer that I’m the first one to love super deep bass, but then it gets to the point where it’s no longer bass, it’s just vibration, so explaining that and sometimes the results are, “Yeah, go for it, fix it. Let’s do whatever is best for the song.” And sometimes it’s like, “No, that’s how it is. That’s how we’re going to keep it.” Then there’s a point at which I have to… Well, I always respect the artistic vision of the producers and artists but then there’s some piece of information that I would be able to bring to the table into their knowledge. It’s their choice to acknowledge them or ignore them, can’t force them. So that has happened for sure, though. The bass is just one of the stories that come to mind real quick.

Jason: Awesome. In getting the best out of people, I’m curious if you could give tips to the musicians that are coming in. Is there anything that you wished that musicians would know about the audio engineering process? Maybe it’s working with you, but I think just audio engineering in general, what will help that musician get the most out of their audio engineer if they at least have that education or knowledge?

Irko: Personally, the ideal scenarios for me to mix the record are the two opposites. It’s either the client wants exactly this, and this could be many things. It could be that, “I want to match the Sonics of this record because I want to be played in an ideal DJ set after them.” That’s one example. Or “I want it just like the rough mix, just better.”, which is always a lie. People are very, very married to the landscape of the Sonics that they want in the end. Or the others, which is basically the exact opposite where it’s like, “Do whatever you want. I don’t know anything.” You take the decisions. You make them however feel like it’s the right way to do it. The two are diametrically opposite. They’re exactly the opposite. I like both, though, because when I have full freedom to dictate the Sonics of the record, then I can just take it, make the decision and run with it. I’m responsible for it. Totally fine. 

When it’s the opposite, where I have constrictions and restrictions and I need to adhere to this vision that they have, I’m more executing their vision. Well, I’m still using all my tools and everything, but I got to respect their vision. Two very different opposite sides of things, but I’m happy either way. There’s sometimes the gray in between, of course. Also, there’s those that I should give out too, as another nugget, which is when they claim they’re one or the other, but then they’re not. You gotta watch out for that, too. You got to read between the lines, not only just go off of what the client is saying.

Jason: Got you. That’s great advice there. I think one of the questions you probably get fairly often is when it comes to relationship building. You’ve had a lot of, I would call it big steps. A lot of people will be like, “Oh, I want to be able to do stuff like Irko.” How does one go about getting to level up? I think you rewind 10 years ago or 20 years ago, and you said you were poor, and you had no relationships. How does that happen? What does one need to be keeping their eye out for?

Irko: Usually, what happens is, just like the grass grows together, the same thing goes with professionals. The peer, that’s the guy that’s right next to you in school, or the girl that was the first tracking session that you’ve ever done or produced, those guys are going to grow together with you. Hopefully their career will blossom and grow just as much as yours. The idea is you don’t know who’s going to be as successful as you. So usually, if you keep good relationships with your peers, even though they might not be as big of a deal as you think, those guys on the radio might be, eventually, they’re going to grow together with you. Usually, it doesn’t happen that the big celebrity calls nobody to do something. It almost never happens that way. What happens is the big celebrity becomes a big celebrity after 15 years of working and it so happens that some of the people that were around that guy before he became a celebrity just happened to be there and growing with them. You know what I mean? So yes, establishing a relationship with your peers as you’re growing is the best way to do it.

Jason: There’s all these conferences and there’s courses that people are selling. Is that something you feel like people need to continue to invest in themselves? Or do you feel like just working hard and it’ll happen?

Irko: Yeah, a little bit of all of that together, combined. The courses and all of that helps in a sense that it is your first step into getting a hand, like an understanding of what you’re doing. I would say don’t make the mistake though of taking 17 courses and then never sit in front of ProTools and do a record. Just do the record. Do the course, understand what a compressor is or whatever, or learn your major skills. Same exact thing, right? Why are we doing the major skill? Well, we are because we’re practicing, and chances are you’re never ever going to use them in your career but it’s a stepping stone. Do the major scale, learn your EQ and all, and then just do the thing, make it happen. By the way, that’s the same feeling that I have about schools and educational courses. It’s like no one has ever finished school knowing what profession they went to study for but it’s a good stepping stone. They’re going to put you in the right direction, get you to know the right people, and so things will develop over time.

Jason: I think as you go through those schools and as you level up, you’re preparing yourself for those opportunities when that next level comes in front of you. If you’re not prepared, you haven’t taken that step one, two or three. If step four comes to you, you’re just not ready for it and you wouldn’t be able to rise to that occasion if you haven’t put in the work before.

Irko: If you’re always ready, you don’t have to get ready, right?

Jason: Right. I saw that you’ve done classes, or you’ve gone and spoken all over the world, essentially. You’ve been to a lot of prestigious schools. I think you call it SpeakEasy. Tell me a little bit about that and what do people need to know about that? What are you trying to do with that?

Irko: Yeah. I haven’t done a lot of that stuff over the COVID break and all that obviously needless to say. It was years back. I was in Baltimore and there was this teacher that asked me to go and speak to the kids in his class, audio engineering class. He had the right note with me because he said something like, “These kids feel like they don’t have an opportunity.” I was like, “No, I need to go and talk to these guys and explain to them that however far they think, they are from the music industry, geographically, maybe.” Baltimore is not exactly the hub, the center of music in the States. My thinking was, “However far you think you are, you better believe I came from way more of a distant place, culturally, geographically. I don’t look like most of my clients. My culture is a completely different thing. I had to relearn everything. You had to.”

Jason: Even learn the language.

Irko: That, too, obviously. I wanted to explain the whole thing to them. That’s how the whole thing started. I was like, “If I can spend some time talking to people and students or just give some time, a little bit of help and a little nugget of truth like I’m trying to share right now with you, why not?” If nobody would have helped me back then, I probably would be more distant. I know for a fact that I could have used a little bit more help back in the day. Now that I can, I am in the position of giving help, why not? The SpeakEasy Workshop idea came from that, and it has manifested in… I think I did more than 40 at this point, and all over the planet from more philosophical talks all the way down to hands on protests. This is how I do this, and this is how I do that thing. I’m down to give back, no problem.

Jason: Awesome. As you think back on your entire career, what would you say is maybe some of the best advice you’ve been given by some of the people that you’ve been around as you’ve been able to go on this journey?

Irko: I’ve heard a lot of No’s in my years. A lot of No’s. Can’t do, no, you can’t be that, you can’t. The advice that I went off of actually didn’t come from a person, but it came from me just thinking there is no version of this universe in which I’m not doing this. You can be saying “No” all day and however many times you want, but I’m doing this. That’s it. It has been decided. That will be one. Another one would be to make sure that you find your niche, your thing, your signature, whatever that is. For me, obviously, it’s my bow ties, my weird cars that I drive, and I’m a character, a little bit. I’m selling my Italian in 100%, but that’s because it’s me. It’s not a persona, it’s me. Everyone is a unique individual and soul. I would say, find whatever it is that you represent and what you are and how you want to be known in the world and go with it. Everyone else is taken anyway.

Jason: Absolutely. I got to say that’s one of the things that impressed me most from a branding standpoint. I feel like you’ve done a phenomenal job of being a character as you call it, and yet you’ve become this likable character that I think people would want to work with. Who’s not going to want to work with somebody wearing a bow tie that’s going to make him sound awesome, right? I think that’s another great lesson that you’ve just shown as well as pay attention to what the successful people around you do and model those behaviors. It doesn’t mean you have to wear bow ties like your code to be successful but again, find that signature thing that… I’ve had it described. 

Chuck Meyer is one of my really close friends that has done a lot of orchestration for video games. He just did the Hogwarts Legacy soundtrack, but when I was in the studio with him, he talked about building these mixes. You’re like a cook in the kitchen and you’re cooking this thing and you know you’ve got the chicken to work with, but you need to put a little bit of this spice and a little bit of that spice. If you put too much pepper in, a little bit too much of something can ruin it. I think as I’ve observed people that have been successful, they’ve taken the good ingredients that they’ve observed around them and really created that final product that’s awesome, that people want to taste and be part of and be around. 

Well, Irko, thank you so much for so many… We’ve dropped so many value bombs. I really appreciate you taking time to share with others. The more I’m in the music industry, the more I realize that there’s a lot of really good people that want to give back and help and lift up others. My hope is that the future generation, as they come up, they’ll continue to carry on that baton and that legacy of helping others.

Irko: Yeah, I’m sure they will, man. I’m sure they will. There’s goodness all around us. 

Jason: There is. Number one I should mention, if people want to go check out your studio build, I think if you go on YouTube, just type in I-R-K-O, and you have some of the best in depth things that people need to think about if you’re building a studio. People should absolutely go check that out. Where else should they go to see what you’re up to or learn more about you?

Irko: On social media @IrkoStudioBeats everywhere, BEAT. Keep up with me. I’m always present and I respond to everybody. I’m not like one of those guys that have other people run their social media. I’m here.

Jason: Awesome. Well, Irko, thank you so much for your time and we’ll catch you on the next one. 

Irko: Thank you, Jason.

Finding success and fulfillment in the music industry is possible. Looking forward to seeing you in our next episode.