Successful Musicians Podcast – Episode #41: From Assistant to Composer: Joy Ngiaw’s Quest for Creative Inspiration

Successful Musicians Podcast Episode 41

Interviewee: Joy Ngiaw

Interviewer: Jason Tonioli

Hey, this is Jason Tonioli. I’m a piano player that grew up believing it wasn’t possible to earn a living and support a family with music. I’ve proven that idea was wrong and I’ve met hundreds of other people who have found success with their music. This podcast features stories of musicians who have found their own personal version of success and fulfillment in both music and life. This podcast is meant to inspire musicians and help them believe in their abilities and motivate them to share their talents with others. This is the Successful Musicians Podcast. 

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Jason: Welcome to the podcast today. Our special guest is Joy Ngiaw. You are from Malaysia, but you’re living in LA. Just over the past few years, you’ve had some really great successes with getting music done in TV and film. I know you’ve got an award you’ve got for an Apple TV or Apple TV Plus. You won some awards for that. You’ve got a Netflix series that you’ve been doing as well, which is awesome. Welcome Joy. Let’s dive in and tell us a little bit about where you came from. How did you get started on music and how did you get where you are today?

Joy: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I’m super stoked. I was born in a village in West Malaysia and was brought up in China. I was really blessed that my parents were always so encouraging for me and my siblings to explore our creativity. We took some piano lessons, we did dance lessons, painting lessons, just anything that had an extra curriculum, I guess, for us to just test the waters. I grew up playing classical piano. I loved it and I stuck with it and started playing in school orchestras and soon was able to play for the New Shanghai Orchestra in high school. I just loved playing in an orchestra, collaborating with people and hearing all the different instruments come together and started paying attention to movie scores because I just love how film scores affect your experience when you’re watching a film and help tell the story. I decided to pursue that passion and went to Berklee College of Music in 2012. Since I graduated, I’ve been here and just hustling in this film industry.

Jason: Awesome. So, to come from China, essentially, and get to Berklee, that’s not an easy thing to do. That’s not something that every kid grows up and thinks, I’m going to end up at Berklee Music School. You must be really good on the piano or have some really great talent in a lot of instruments then, right?

Joy: I was really good at classical piano but as you know, as a piano player yourself, it takes a lot of practice. I’m definitely out of practice in the classical piano world, but it’s definitely an instrument that I always gravitate towards. It feels like home to me, and I use that a lot in my compositions.

Jason: Got it. I’m just curious, as you were growing up, because I came up through the classical world as well, where you learned how to play Beethoven and Rachmaninoff, all things, the way that somebody decided that was how it was supposed to be played with all the technical stuff. As I got into college and started really improvising, I was never really taught to improvise. I’m just curious if that was your experience as well of not really being encouraged to understand what’s actually going on behind the music versus just playing what’s on the page.

Joy: That was actually… You nail it down because when we’re practicing, it’s like, okay, we practice the scales, and we do all these repertoires. I started improvising actually because of the music. I just started paying attention to the score. Oh, there’s music playing in the background when you watch a film, especially those childhood animations. I grew up watching Disney, Pixar films. I was so curious about it. Let me just try it out. I started to improvise on the piano by myself for fun, just whatever I was feeling at the moment. I remember in high school, I would sneak into the auditorium where there’s a grand piano there, and I would just play whatever with no scores and that was the first experience. It’s quite freeing, not following any book. I just realized I love that more. I really love expressing myself and being connected to my emotions through music so it’s definitely something that triggered my interest in composition.

Jason: People ask me often, how is it that you can somehow play without the music? Again, I would say almost 90, 95% of the people who play piano came up through that. Here’s a note here, you’re going to play what’s written and it’s just this foreign idea to them to be able to sit down and all of a sudden play. The best way I’ve found to explain that to people is to say, hey, you can sing a song, right? So, anybody can sing a tune. Well, how did you learn how to do that? Well, I don’t know. You just do it. It’s the same way with, I think, the fingers a little bit . If you do it enough times, all of a sudden you start teaching your fingers how to sign up and down the keyboard the same way that the voice does it. Only you get all 88 keys, which is awesome to have that range.

Joy: Yeah. Actually, something that really inspires me when I was improvising on the piano is the feeling of nostalgia because I was born in Malaysia, but I studied in China, so there was always a longing. I think as a child, I was sensitive and there was always a longing for home. I miss home, I miss my family, I miss my roots back in Malaysia. I never really knew how to express that till I started playing things on the piano. It was quite somber, but it was just my way of feeling connected to home, if that makes sense. It was really a therapeutic process. I remember a music teacher walking in. He’s like, you should try writing music. You should try composing because I didn’t know what that was. I just thought I want to express my feeling of nostalgia, my longing for home through piano. I didn’t even know I was doing that until someone pointed it out to me. It’s so special that music makes you connect.

Jason: I think there’s a couple of moments as I look back when I was playing piano, I was not the model student like you probably were, where you probably practiced. I had a mom that had to try me and force me to practice. I would be so much better had I actually practiced more than I did but in Utah, where I’m at, there’s a Gina Bachauer competition for piano that’s really famous, and they bring people in from all over the world to come into that. I remember, and I honestly don’t even remember who told this to me, but one of the teachers that was at the competition, she always would take students. I was never good enough to even pretend like I could compete there. She came back and she said I had this, one of the students, and it was from China, had played this piece just perfectly. I mean, just nailed it, which is awesome. She said that the judge did something that she’d never seen anybody else do. Usually, they just are quiet, and they don’t really say a lot, but she actually stopped her and said, I want you to visualize clouds as you play this now.

The student, in my lesson, was explaining, this student had the hardest time to be able to connect the idea of feelings or this visual nostalgia, whatever it might be, this beautiful thing with the music that was just so technical and rigid that they’d gotten the technical down. It’s almost like taking a computer and saying, hey, AI go play this, but now play it with feelings doing.

Joy: Yeah, free style

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Jason: Yeah. I really think that’s what film and TV does. It is creating this feeling. For me, I was the same way. It just made it magical to be able to put the emotion and the feeling into that. I don’t know. I think that’s why I’ve gravitated to that type of music for my life. As I started playing, it made me feel good.

Joy: A huge influence on mine as a composer, Joe Hisaishi. Same as that feeling that you were describing where I just love the complexity of emotions in his music where he’s not afraid to dive into this. When I listen to it, it feels like it’s in between emotions. I don’t know. It’s not like, this is happy, this is sad. It lives in that in between. It’s so beautiful. I really gravitate towards music like that that evokes that thought provoking feeling.

Jason: Since you were a classical piano, I don’t usually have classical pianists on here, I get to talk about some stuff. One of my things with classical piano that I always found as a student is it sometimes would feel like there was too much going on. I think part of it is there would be… Maybe that was the idea that the orchestra would be all these different things but when you’re on the piano and you have all these chords and notes, sometimes I feel like the beauty can get lost really quickly when you get too crazy. I’m just curious, you talked about simplicity and beauty. How do you dial in on the simple and not overdo too many chords and too much stuff going on?

Joy: With classical piano, I think that’s why I was gravitating towards impressionistic piano music like Debussy or Ravel, because I feel like it gives you the freedom to… We’re playing the notes on the piano, but whenever we’re… I feel like it’s more space for us to express ourselves. It’s just so fluid. I feel that it’s a bit more flexible with not many rules. At least that’s how I approach it. Maybe my piano teacher when I was younger might say otherwise, but that’s the feeling that I get. It’s interesting that you mentioned that because I am more drawn to impressionistic piano compositions where I feel like there’s a little bit more space and space is encouraged. Actually, it wasn’t Debussy the one that said music is the silence between notes as well. Again, so beautiful and resonates with me so well. Yeah, it’s funny. It’s just whatever works with people. Everyone’s drawn to different music, but I guess my realm, I really was drawn to that.

Jason: I remember back, and I don’t know if this ever happened to you where I’d be playing Beethoven. This happened probably the worst on Rachmaninoff or not and I think the reason it probably happened to me; I would change some of the music. Oh, really? There Is so much going on. I was doing a Prelude in G minor. It was just all over the place. I’d get to the middle and it’d be this up and down and I would find myself trying to film like, well, he should have gone here. I had a teacher tell me, and I think they were jokingly telling me this, that dead composers will come back and haunt you if they change.

Joy: Really? Oh, no.

Jason: It was one of those where I just felt like, gosh, if Beethoven was here to have a conversation with him and say, don’t you think it sounds better this way?

Joy: Yeah, don’t you think so? I mean, it’s not the beauty of it. It’s so subjective. Everyone can see a painting and feel differently. I feel the same with music. When someone hears it, there’s no rules. You have to feel this way when you hear this piece of music. That’s not the idea, I feel. Hopefully, the ghost of Beethoven will agree.

Jason: I think for musicians out there, I think having that ability to be told, hey, if you want to change a little bit of Beethoven, it makes you feel good. Maybe you got to pass your song off or pass your test, get a grade in school. Most of the time, who are you playing the piano for or the music for? It’s for you. Make it your own. I guess the only place you run into trouble with that is if you want to record it and then have licensing issues, I guess, if you’re publishing. Even then, with the way covers work these days, it’s pretty easy to get permission and do a mashup of Taylor Swift and Beethoven, I guess, if you really wanted to.

Joy: It’s unique. We don’t want to hear the same performance, the same expression of this piece of music. I love hearing other people’s covers of different things and making it their own. It’s so interesting. That’s the beauty of it.

Jason: It’s what makes it fun. So, let’s talk about your experience with coming to the United States and going to music school. You were probably just barely out of high school and scared to death, right? Talk us through some of that.

Joy: I was 17. I was super young. I loved it. I mean, I really found my community. I think in China, maybe I didn’t quite find that community yet, but I definitely found that at Berklee, especially in the film scoring department. We’re still keeping contact today. I have such a close group of friends that are also in this film industry. I always say, I feel that we found our people just because everyone is so passionate about not just film music, but just we’re also in tune of our emotions. I think you have to have that sensitivity and expression when you’re doing film music. I just never felt so seen by this community like, oh, we all love the same thing. We all love movies, and we express ourselves differently but that’s so cool. It’s celebrated, like sensitivity and being emotional was celebrated. I just feel so grateful to even have that experience. I think it really encouraged me to come out of my introverted shell and just embrace being emotional because it helps me write music. It helps me connect with others and that’s what made my music… I feel that I can serve the story better because I understand people and I’m interested in people. I love connecting with people.

Jason: With your music side, was there a moment where you feel like all of a sudden everything clicked together and where you got that confidence to be able to move forward and that you could do this?

Joy: In school? Yeah. There were lots of great mentors and teachers that really encouraged me. I think what was really motivating to me was in Berklee, there was this class where only eight students got selected, and it’s to score a silent film. It’s a very intensive class that is like an extra credit thing, but you really work closely with the teacher. I feel like that class really propels me in storytelling because it felt like working with a director because he was telling us how to score a silent film, no dialog. That music really has to tell the story and I feel like I did a very extensive master class in that one. We got to score that silent film, and they performed it actually at the Boston Symphony Orchestra with the Boston pops, which is insane. As a student, it was really insane to hear a professional orchestra play your music to picture. I think that really gave me confidence. This is so fun. I want to keep doing this. It just enriches my life a lot.

Jason: Yeah. So, if you could rewind the clock back and have a conversation with yourself, that 17-year-old you or another student, let’s say you’re back in Berklee, given a here’s what I wish I would have known, what advice would you have for those individuals?

Joy: In different stages. I think to my very younger self, like a teenager, maybe I would encourage her to embrace being emotional because especially in Asian culture before then, coming from a traditional family, being emotional wasn’t really celebrated. We were more like, okay, let’s not… We don’t express emotions. I always thought being very sensitive or being emotional was not a great thing. It made me not fit in, but I would really encourage my younger self to not be afraid of that because it becomes a tool to connect with others. I just fully embrace it. It really does make my life as a composer, but also a human, to be more enriched. So that would be my advice for that younger self. In turn, for Berklee career advice is I would say just move here or just try to seek out opportunities to work in the music team of other composers and working in the industry because I really found that super valuable to being mentored and working in the shadows of people who are already in the industry because I feel like that’s where I learned so much by being here and helping out.

Jason: You talk about this music team, and I think this is especially for those younger people in music, we have this picture in our mind that there’s the rock star on the stage, maybe there’s somebody pushing the lights on the board back at the concert and then the re’s the recording artists, I guess but you talked about the team, so maybe share some of these other opportunities that a lot of people don’t realize even exists that you found when you came to States or at Berklee.

Joy: Through the Berklee 11I network, I was able to apply for internships here in LA prior moving to Los Angeles and I started an internship with a TV composer, Jeff Russell. I was intern and then I became an assistant for him for a year and that was such a valuable experience because I really, truly saw how an actual working TV composer works in the industry. You definitely need a team. I didn’t learn those things at Berklee because these are real life experiences that I think are really valuable that helps my career in the future because I learned so much of how he conducts himself with clients or how he writes and how he manages so many TV schedule, so many projects, attending recording sessions and seeing how the conductor conducts the orchestra, how does the studio managers work. It was such an educational process to just be there and observe. There are so many different jobs in this because it takes a whole team to deliver a score. That was so valuable.

After I assisted Jeff, I went on to assist another composer who’s a documentary composer. Then I get to learn that side of the world. I just think about being part of a music team and helping… I learned that there’s so many different positions that you can help, whether it’s music editing or score prep or orchestration, being an assistant, or a score mixer. There’s just so many opportunities. Additional writer. There’s no one path, I think, to start working in L. A. I think the only path is really just exerting yourself in as many different experiences as possible. You would start to find what you’re good at and what you are more interested in and then start going there. I wouldn’t have known that unless I was here and just trying different things.

Jason: In finding that team, you say there’s all these opportunities. I run across artists all the time, and they’re really talented and they’ve recorded great things, but they struggle to figure out how to open that first door or second door that leads to those opportunities. What do you suggest for people that say hey, I want to be a movie composer. How do you find that first door or do you just send a whole bunch of emails to your favorite composers and hope for a prayer? What do you recommend for opening those doors to start?

Joy: While I was assisting these composers, I still kept doing my own. I still knew my end goal was to be my own composer so while I was assisting during my day job, I also made an effort to show up at film festivals or go see a concert or just attending events because for me working on my career, which is like start making connections with up-and-coming directors and indie directors and just even though if I don’t have a film, I’ll still go see and watch and then start talking to people. That’s really how I got my first start in having my own project because I showed up at these events and then I randomly met someone who I connected really well with, and they happened to have a new short film that wanted to get scored and that’s how they would find me. I did that a lot while I was assisting composers. I made sure to still have time to also work on my own music and that was really my experience because at Berklee, I did then score other people’s. I didn’t have that experience of working on someone else’s film. That just started accumulating and soon enough, I felt really comfortable to not assist anymore and just be on my own because 21:31  if you do a good job on one, they will recommend you to someone else and the circle just keeps getting wider. I think if you’re working hard and you’re putting in your all, I think it does start growing. There’s really no one path. That’s how I came about. I also know people who didn’t assist. They just went straight to freelance, or some other composers will work as a composer assistant for a long time, and then they get promoted to additional writers, and then soon they get promoted to co-writers. There’s really no one path. That’s just what worked for me. That’s the beauty of it. There are so many different ways.

Jason: One of the couple of things I’m hearing from you, though, is that you continued to work on your own stuff. My guess is you probably worked a hard, long day at your normal job, and then you went home, and you worked on your own stuff for fun. A lot of people want to go punch out at their job, and then they’re like, I don’t have time to do it and have this dream of, well, if I could just spend full-time on it. I think the key is learning to… You’ll realize if you really love music and that’s what you want to do in your spare time, I think that’s a big clue for people.

Joy: It’s a balance, too, for sure. It’s a balance. To balance all this while having a life and having personal life as well.

Jason: The other thing that you mentioned that I think is really important is that you would proactively seek out film festivals and go to films. My guess is you didn’t just go sit there on the back row or in the middle, wherever your seat was. Maybe sometimes you enjoyed the concert, but you probably would at least talk to the person next to you and introduce yourself and be friendly. I see so many opportunities. Airplanes are the perfect example.

Joy: Yeah, that’s true. You get plenty of opportunities.

Jason: You get on that airplane seat, and it drives my wife crazy where I’ll be that friendly guy that can talk your ear off. I’ve tried to learn, okay, they don’t want to talk very much. They just stick their headphones on. You can meet some of the most interesting people on airplanes or at concerts.

Joy: That’s true.

Jason: They may not be a music composer, but my guess is they probably know somebody, or they’ve got some cool life experience. I think connecting, not only like the emotional level that you said, be more emotionally there, but I think just connecting with human beings and being open to their stories. I feel like a lot of times there’s opportunities put in our path, and sometimes we take advantage of them, and other times they might be sitting right next to you on the airplane, and you never took the time to just say, Hey, I’m Joy.

Joy: I really think it’s just to be curious because I genuinely am curious. When I go to the film festivals and I see a film that intrigues me, I want to know what inspired you. Why did you want to tell this story? I think if you show people you’re actually interested. They will want to talk to you. It’s a very organic thing. I realized it can’t be forced to. Of course, sometimes I’ll go to events and I’m like, oh, I can’t connect to anyone, and that’s okay. I just went at it at my own pace and whatever worked for me, I think I was comfortable with. 24:51  I didn’t force anything to happen. It just organically happened. Those, to me, are the best collaborations because you really do just align on a creative vision and then magic happens because then you work with other people. I really love that. I love writing music, but I also really love working with people and really am curious about their story.

Jason: That’s great. You said something I think is really important. I just want to bring it up again if you said you were there, and you were interested in that.

Joy: Yes.

Jason: If you think about being a composer, for scoring that film, yes, you’re part of that process. But a lot of times when you’re scoring a film, it’s not about you. It’s about that director and it’s about their vision they had. I think a good composer, somebody who’s a really good music supervisor, is the same thing. They’re going to pay attention to what’s important to the film and to that director to capture that vision. When it clicks, just like you said, it clicks but if you genuinely don’t care and you aren’t interested, it’s going to be really hard to score a film. If you hate the subject or you hate the show in general, you could be doing a whole lot of other things that you’d be interested in and you’d do a whole lot better job with than…

Joy: Yeah. We’re there to serve the story. That’s the most important thing. Yes, 26:21 I want my music to be great, but my main objective is to serve the story, support the vision and that’s what’s the difference between a film composer and a composer. It’s like you really were there to help, were there to serve. Whenever I feel that I can support the director’s vision or the purpose of it, I feel like I’ve done my job.

Jason: From observing just a lot of different situations over the years, I think for a composer they get inspiration, and that’s great but when they get aligned with a cool project, it maybe introduces them to a whole another set of characters or world that they would have never even dreamed up. Now all of a sudden, when you merge the composer with that other vision and the dream, all of a sudden it just takes you in this whole another cool direction that neither one probably ever, maybe ever would have found without the opportunity.

Joy: Exactly. Everyone brings their strengths to the table. It’s not just the composer, the directors, the writers, the actors, everyone, colorists, everybody brings something and then in the end, that product is born. It’s so cool. That collaboration process is so much fun to support. Everyone just wants to support the film.

Jason: I think for any movie buff out there, even if you’re not into music, I think if you pay attention to who those composers are. Hans Zimmer is a perfect example. He’s worked on so many different projects, but his music varies across a whole ton of spectrums, which is really cool. My guess is without those opportunities to say, hey, we’re going to do this show, Interstellar in space, and then we’re going to do Gladiator, and we’re going to have… We’re going to rewind the clock hundreds of years, and we’ve got to capture those different types. I think as composers, sometimes we get stuck in our… Here’s our zone where we’re comfortable. I think the beauty of the film and TV is it brings in a wider idea for your music sometimes that you otherwise wouldn’t get if you were just going to your piano every day to write music.

Joy: That is the beauty of working as a composer is you get to work in so many different genres because everyone has a unique story to tell. There’s no limit to that. You can work on a live action, a video game, animation, and so many different genres. You get to put on different hats every day. I’m just really grateful to be able to do this as a living.

Jason: You’ve done several projects with people. Once you get the person that says, hey, I want you to help me with my documentary or with my film, what are some of the tips I guess you’d have for anybody who’s out, maybe they’re an established veteran or somebody doing it their first time. What are some of those tricks that you’ve learned that helped that process go a little bit? Does it sit down with the person? Are there a lot of Zoom calls? Is it meetings, emails? How do you do that to be the most successful?

Joy: I really love the initial meet and greet with the filmmakers because I really want to understand, like we were talking about, to be curious. I’m so curious, why did you do this story? What were your inspirations behind it? Who are these characters? What message do you want the audience to receive through your film? Those conversations are really important to me because it acts as a backbone on why we’re doing this. I like to find out why. Then from there, I can start building a sound palette in my head, like, what would be suitable for this project and start writing character themes or film themes and start the conversation there. Before I even score into the picture, I will always start writing themes first and then have those conversations based on those themes. Like, what do you think about this? Do you think this represents your film well? Once we have solidified that musical palette, then when we’re starting to score the film, we already have such a strong foundation built. That’s all built based on finding out the why for all the filmmakers and really understanding the core, the soul of the story and to me, that helps a lot.

Jason: When you talk about the sound palette, is it several existing recordings to find out what flavors? It sounds to me a little bit like you’re the chef in this kitchen and you’ve got all these ingredients and you’re going to narrow it down and say, okay, we’re going to do lemon herb chicken. That way, you’re not going out and doing a whole bunch of sushi with the chicken that’s going to be… Both are good, but don’t necessarily play well together.

Joy: For me, when I say sound palette, it’s more like orchestration, melodies, and harmonies. For example, this project I’ve done is called Blush on Apple TV. It’s an animation. So first I understand the story. The story is a tribute to my director’s late wife who died of breast cancer. The theme of this film was how family was like oxygen. When he said that, it inspired me to, oh, oxygen. So that’s air. What if I add some vocal textures to it to signify that. Okay, he’s talking about air. Then that means I can feature some woodwinds because that’s wind instruments, air instruments. Okay, it’s about family to me. Family feels like a piano because it feels like home to me. We want strings. We want heartwarming things. So then I started building these ideas. Before I even started writing, I had those ideas in my head already based on that conversation. Then I really think about what the characters are feeling, and then I’ll start composing maybe the initial theme. Then I’ll send that theme to the director, and then they can give me feedback on what they think. I was really happy that the idea of adding vocal breaths to that sound palette really resonated with our director.

Then we use that intentionally. Okay, when the astronauts are in love, that’s when his breath is here so we have that but when, spoiler, when the alien, when she goes away, then the breath is taken away. Then it comes back again when he’s moving and has hope, stuff like that. Everything is very intentional. I love just evolving my musical palette based on projects.

Jason: It sounds almost like the video game where they put little Easter eggs or even in movies all over the place. The music’s the same way. I think that probably happens more than most people ever even realize.

Joy: Yeah, everything’s with attention. Intention.

Jason: That’s amazing. Cool. Wow. I’m just curious. You talked a little bit about getting with the director. If you worked with music supervisors, I know there’s a lot of these music supervisors that independent artists I know are becoming more and more aware of the supervisors and trying to get music pitched to them. I’m curious what your experience has been with that world and have you got any tips for those independent artists that maybe have that aren’t necessarily composers but would still like to get music into film or TV.

Joy: Oh, as a songwriter?

Jason: Yeah, these songwriters that are actually scoring the full songs. Have you seen, especially where you’re working on these documentaries and other things, I’m sure you’ve crossed paths with a lot of supervisors and just opportunities where you need to get… Maybe you’re not a bluegrass type musician, but you need somebody. Would it be helpful sometimes for the composer to have artists that are doing other things that maybe you’re not good at. What do you suggest for those individuals?

Joy: Yeah, the music supervisors, they’re such a great resource. They’re such a wealth of knowledge in the musical world. Like you said, the genre is just so wide and that their job is to put together also in their way, a sound palette for the film to present the directors. What do you think of these songs? Is this the vibe? These are some artists that may present those ideas to the director first and see what they feel about that and create different scenarios. In terms of pitching to music supervisors, I do have an agent, so they do pitch me to music supervisors. I’m not quite sure how that would go for other artists.

Jason: Got it. Well, the agents, a whole another angle that I think a lot of people maybe should consider. What would you say a good agent does for a composer like yourself?

Joy: I was really lucky. I found my agent after Blush came out, they found me. 35:21 A common advice that I’ve heard in the industry is always, at least for film composers, agents will find you when they’re ready because they need something to sell on. You need to have a very unique musical voice for someone to be able to talk about you and present to clients. What my agents have done for me is they set me up with meetings. That’s the best part where they set me up with music supervisors, or if there’s any film that I watch and I’m really inspired by, I’ll be like, oh, I like this film, and this is the project I’m drawn towards. They will try to piece the puzzle together, like, who can she meet and maybe let’s plant some seeds there. They’ve been a great resource to me, but I didn’t have an agent for a very long time when I was scoring my indie films and that’s okay. I think mainly it’s just keep working on your art, just keep expanding your repertoire, keep collaborating and as soon as I think when there’s a film that catches the agent’s attention, they will come find you.

Jason: Got it. The key is keep writing music and doing it your way so that you love it. I think when that opportunity comes, if you’ve got 100 or 300 or 1,000 songs in your repertoire, that’s going to be a whole lot better than if you’ve done a dozen songs and have done one album. You’re probably not ready for an agent, right?

Joy: Exactly. You have to be ready to have an agent. For a long time, I didn’t. Maybe five years or so, I was just doing my own films and like you said, it’s because I love it and wasn’t expecting much so I definitely feel really fortunate.

Jason: Yeah, so last question for you. What’s the best advice you’ve been given that comes to mind when it comes to the music business and music career that you’ve taken?

Joy: For composition, the best advice I’ve had is to score with intention because there was a time where, especially when I was working on Blush, what I learned so much from the filmmakers is, why did you add this instrument? Or why did you write the storyline? Is it serving the story or is it an extra thing? I realized that’s true. Sometimes if I get stuck in writing music, I really just think back, okay, what is the music supposed to say now in terms of the story? What are our characters feeling? That was such a valuable lesson I took from scoring that project. In terms of industry, I think it’s just finding your community. There’s just so many different people here in this industry, and not all will work and that’s okay because there’s always people that you will get connected with and that you resonate with that you guys align on your creative vision and just don’t be afraid to explore that, to meet people and fail and maybe succeed in some. You have to just do it to have that experience to move forward, I believe.

Jason: Yeah, that’s great advice. Well, Joy, I know we’ve gone way over time. It’s been an awesome conversation. I love chatting with you.

Joy: I think it’s so much fun. It’s like talking to your friend.

Jason: We should do this more often. We should do another one. I’d love to dive into some of the music and really even show some examples maybe on a future podcast. We should for sure reconnect again. If people want to go check out some of your music and listen to the things you’ve done, where should they go to find you?

Joy: My website is JoyNgiaw. Ngiaw is spelled N-G-I-A-W. All my social handles are my name as well so you can stay updated through that.

Jason: Awesome. We’re going to post all of the links right into the podcast notes. If you’re listening to this in your car, you can go home and you can click and go check it out. You’ve got some amazing music, Joy. I really have been impressed with… I listen to a lot of music, and you’ve got some great stuff, so well done. Keep it up.

Joy: Thank you so much for having me. This is so much fun. I really feel like we’re just having coffee and hanging out.

Jason: That’s the point. This has been great. I have no doubt that some of the value ideas and bombs that you drop today are going to help some people in their future. Thank you so much for being so giving of your time.

Joy: Thank you. Thank you so much.

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Finding success and fulfillment in the music industry is possible. Looking forward to seeing you in our next episode.